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  1. #1
    wullie
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    Exclamation toe walking in children with autism

    Cerebral Palsy In Infancy
    Hello everyone,

    I am currently working with children who have autism and a lot of these children are toe walker.I am trying to do a bit more in depth reserch on this, but unfortunately I haven't found much information on the web which is a bit more specific on this matter.

    I anyone has more specific information or is also working in this field I would be very grateful for any help.

    Thanks

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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Dear Wullie,

    This is an interesting question that I have been busy looking into from another perspective.

    In the last weeks two papers have been published about sensory processing and toewalking and the processing of sensory information in children with autism spectrum disorders (ASD).

    1. Abstract | Idiopathic toe walking and sensory processing dysfunction article on Idiopathic toe walking and sensory processing dysfunction in the online Journal of Foot and Ankle Research 2010, 3:16doi:10.1186/1757-1146-3-16


    2. Autism linked to multisensory integration
    A new study by researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University has provided concrete evidence that children with autism spectrum disorders (ASD) process sensory information such as sound, touch and vision differently than typically developing children.

    The thought has crossed my mind that the reason why children (not only those with autisme) toewalk could possibly be because of a need to "stimulate" their own sensory systems.

    I would like to hear what others think about this idea.

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    i agree with you, since these kids have behavioural crisis,many of them are hyperactive and have attention deficits, which makes them overactive and hence to receive early sensory stimulations they tend to walk in this manner and since they have attention deficits it becomes difficult to mend their gait pattern..........
    people, kindly share ur views or if wana rectify mine and enlighten me with sum better concepts,ur most welcome!!!


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    dear Shruti,

    I have not found any literature to back up this idea. Have you?

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Dear Shruthi and Ester,
    I am not surprised to see these kids are toe walkers. Sensory processing dysfunction is the reason for that. Sensory Integration explains the reason for this, Proprioceptive needs for the children is one reason, however other reasons can be determined. First there is a need for a detail sensory assesment for this kid.
    Regards.


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Quote Originally Posted by illuminatidinesh View Post
    Dear Shruthi and Ester,
    I am not surprised to see these kids are toe walkers. Sensory processing dysfunction is the reason for that. Sensory Integration explains the reason for this, Proprioceptive needs for the children is one reason, however other reasons can be determined. First there is a need for a detail sensory assesment for this kid.
    Regards.
    Dear Dinesh,

    The point is that this "sensory processing dysfunction" has been hypothesized for so many decades. I have met many SI trained therapists saying the very same. I have read mrs Ayres book BUT there is no scientific evidence to back this theory up as far as I know.

    If there is, I would love to know. Please share with us.

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    hi dinesh,

    im working on a child ,he is autistic with a vry weird gait pattern....he walks with his one leg forward and one backward(like a dance step).esp. wen a music is on he walks faster in the same manner....he seems restless too as he keep crying all the time....very few things attracts him n calms him down like music,COOL air(A.C).DO u think some physical therapy might help him improving his this sort of pattern or occupational or sum play therapy is going to be the ultimate plan of treatment

    i wud also like to know what all points shud be undertaken while sensory assessment of children with toe walking
    Additional Comment I forgot:
    we'v been discussing about the theories behind "toe walkers in autism" only, dont u people think we shud next switch onto its treatment now!!!!!!


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Dear Ester,
    The problem is that we have a very few theoritical evidence in the field of Sensory Integration and same Goes for NDT. That doesnt mean they are not effective. From what I have seen from my experience SI does have a huge impact on these children. Many have improved drastically. But then it is your judgement to take it.
    Again What I feel is that there are experiments being conducted around the world, the problem is that various variables cannot be controlled.
    Therapist like myself depend on the experience of Jean Ayres and Erna Blanch.
    Regards.
    Additional Comment I forgot:
    Hi Shruthi,
    From What I have seen from ur post is that he seems to have sensory problem indeed. Let me post this question 1)How do know he is Autistic? ( who diagnosed that) 2) Is he a ADHD? There is a fair chance he could be. But I am forced to accecpt with wat u say.
    U were asking for the special PT,OT tech? He could benifit from SI.
    The problem is we dont go for specific assesment for toe walkers, rather only a generalised SI assesment. May be that can give a detailed analysis of his condition.
    Regards


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    i also asked one thing frm u.........i.e, the course uv done aftr ur bachelors frm? please provide me the details.......


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    how can toe walkers be treated......kids m talkn bout


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Dear Shruti,

    I understand your frustation at not getting a straight answer.

    Children and adults suffering from severe autisme are a very difficult group to treat. In these cases, as with other mentally challenged, we cannot expect to be able to change a lot. We often see very strange gait patterns in the mentally challenged patients.

    I have not experience in changing gait in this group and I have not read any articles on this subject, so I am sorry I cannot be of help in this respect. My question is why do you want to change the gait? Do you have a specific treatment goal in mind?


    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    thanx for d reply......

    y am aftr changing their gait is......more they walk on toes more r they prone2frequent falls......so is with tht kid also...he hs got so many stitches on his head,near lips......so his gait z becoming dangerous for him now........


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    dear Shruti,

    I can give you a few suggestions:
    you can try to:

    1. put weights (half kilo for example) around his ankles, it is possible this will make him more aware of his feet and where he is putting them

    2. try making cardboard or plastic clownsfeet, big feet that fit over his shoes, then show him how he can walk as charley chaplin... making them for yourself as well and doing this with music on will be great fun

    3. you can also make big broader shoes, forcing him to abduct

    4. Try placing feet on the ground he has to step on, if he finds this boring, make something he likes to stand on.
    (I often draw them on paper, kids love the sound of walking on paper)


    I hope one of these suggestions does some good.

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    thanx so much for the suggestions........iam applying weights and it z helping a bit.....will try othrs too
    regards
    shruti


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    dear Shruti,

    Glad to help.

    Please try and type complete words, a lot of the people reading this forum do not have english as their first language.... and yours is hard to read every now and again.
    At least it is for me being an old bird .

    Look forward to hearing how things go.

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    what all words trouble u in my replies........i think i use complete words no abb.but anyws,i'll take care of it in future


  17. #17
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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Quote Originally Posted by estherderu View Post
    Dear Dinesh,

    The point is that this "sensory processing dysfunction" has been hypothesized for so many decades. I have met many SI trained therapists saying the very same. I have read mrs Ayres book BUT there is no scientific evidence to back this theory up as far as I know.

    If there is, I would love to know. Please share with us.

    Esther
    Good job, Esther.

    Just to reiterate, there is no evidence that suggests toe-walking is due to "sensory processing dysfunction." Nothing. Thus, clinicians that suggest children with toe-walking having sensory processing dysfunction are not practicing evidence-based and likely in error. Maintaining this logic, sensory intergration (SI) "techniques" likely would be incorrect and a waste of time for treatment of toe-walking.


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Hi Bobby,

    Have you got any comments or thoughts about my pondering...
    " The thought has crossed my mind that the reason why children (not only those with autisme) toewalk could possibly be because of a need to "stimulate" their own sensory systems. ?

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Hi Bobby,

    Have you got any comments or thoughts about my pondering...
    " The thought has crossed my mind that the reason why children (not only those with autisme) toewalk could possibly be because of a need to "stimulate" their own sensory systems. ?

    Esther
    First Am surprised to see ur comment on Sensory Integration(U are such a n experienced person). Now U could be right here.... Yes these children are in need to stimulate their own sensory system. In this particular case I suspect he needs proprioceptive needs( if at all he really has SI issues).
    REGARDS
    Additional Comment I forgot:
    Good job, Esther.

    Just to reiterate, there is no evidence that suggests toe-walking is due to "sensory processing dysfunction." Nothing. Thus, clinicians that suggest children with toe-walking having sensory processing dysfunction are not practicing evidence-based and likely in error. Maintaining this logic, sensory intergration (SI) "techniques" likely would be incorrect and a waste of time for treatment of toe-walking.
    You are very quick to dismiss the thought without producing any proof of ur own claim. What we assume here is Sensory processing dysfunction could be a reason, there could be other causes too. There is no logic in ur speculation here, please read carefully again" toe walking in Autistic Kids" your reply could suit if the kid has only toe walking(the reason could be physical,neurological).
    Additional Comment I forgot:
    Dear Ester,
    I saw ur suggestions to Shruthi... I myself could have suggested the 1 and 4 point.... Are you aware of the fact that these points has some valid sensory input to this kid which he seems to be lacking.....
    Regards


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    dear dinesh,

    I have found the information on the free access journal called journal of foot and ankle research the place to find out more about the foot and particularly the footsole.
    Journal of Foot and Ankle Research

    Yes it is alarming when one realizes that what one is saying ( and really believes true) might not be correct. We simple do not have any scientific evidence to back up the claims that mrs Ayres, the Wikipedia reference-linkBobath's and Vojta made.
    Of course, we have seen that the therapy works (sometimes) - we think...... but the fact that we do not know WHY its works should humble us into trying to find out.

    In this age of brain research the new developmental theories give us enough to think about. I think that more and more research is being done and new methods will be the result.


    kind regards

    Esther


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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Quote Originally Posted by illuminatidinesh View Post
    You are very quick to dismiss the thought without producing any proof of ur own claim. What we assume here is Sensory processing dysfunction could be a reason, there could be other causes too. There is no logic in ur speculation here, please read carefully again" toe walking in Autistic Kids" your reply could suit if the kid has only toe walking(the reason could be physical,neurological).
    I will be nice about the following:

    Please be aware of your own behaviors as the oweness is on you to provide "proof" of your claims since you suggested children with autism and toe-walking have sensory processing disorders. I made no claims, but did say that there was no evidence to support such a statement that children with autism and toe-walking have sensory processing disorders. See bellow.

    Just to reiterate, there is no evidence that suggests toe-walking is due to "sensory processing dysfunction."
    This is fact and cannot be disputed based on the scientific literature. Unless you have literature and sources that I don't. And I doubt that. Why would I provide any further if there is nothing else? Please don't reference 'logic' if you yourself have not discriminated the logic of my arguments and have not of your own. Please don't say I provided 'speculations' when I have not speculated at all. My arguments could be for either children with autism or children without autism and toe-walk. Thus, yours points are not germane.

    To reiterate a specific point- you have the responsibity to show evidence to support the following statements:

    Quote Originally Posted by illuminatidinesh View Post
    Dear Shruthi and Ester,
    I am not surprised to see these kids are toe walkers. Sensory processing dysfunction is the reason for that. Sensory Integration explains the reason for this, Proprioceptive needs for the children is one reason, however other reasons can be determined. First there is a need for a detail sensory assesment for this kid.
    Regards.
    Please provide evidence-based support for these statments including toe-walkers having sensory processing dysfunction, how sensory intergration explains toe-walking, propioceptive needs for children toe-walking.

    I will be waiting- as I watch the views of this thread continue to rise from 374.


  22. #22
    wullie
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    Smile Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Hi,

    thanks to everyone for their threads, it's nice to get some feedback.
    Most of the children I work with are non-verbal and don't follow instructions well or not at all.

    I worked with a child on a spinning whell,he really enjoys being spun around.A couple of sessions and minimal verbal prompts. He still goes up onto his tip toes when spun around but manages to control and come back onto his feet.Furthermore has his gate improved and he's walking a lot less on his tip toes.

    But I'm more than happy for any treatment suggestions that involve minimal instructions or any other suggestions.

    Thanks everyone,
    Ilka


  23. #23
    wullie
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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Hi,

    thanks for all the good answers....as I like all your points in respect to toe walking in autistic children.Due to not much reserch being done in this matter I like to hear all of your comments and ideas. Kepp going :-)
    Every autistic child I worked with in regards to their toe-walking they also all had SPC and are seen by an OT. In co-operation we managed to reduce the time some of the children spent on their tip toes. The one's where physical change has already occured are a lot harder to treat.
    We won't be able to stop most of our children from toe-walking; but we managed to reduce the amount they toe walk and the long turn effects is has on them,e.g. changes to the muscle/bone structure,main changes to the gait which brings them of balance and increases their risk to fall.

    Thanks to everyone :-)


  24. #24
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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    dear Ilka,

    what do you mean by SPC?
    I do not know what this abbreviation means sorry.

    Esther


  25. #25
    wullie
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    Re: toe walking in children with autism

    Hi Esther,

    sorry about that, I ment SPD-sensory processing dysfunction.

    Ilka



 

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